INTERVIEW OF THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW I
2015 II 3-16 | 3955 (April 4, 2015)
Antonio Spadaro S.I.
To climb the narrow staircase, in their
understated elegance, which connect the floors of the Building of the
Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, gives rhythm to the clear
perception that this place, in itself small, is the spiritual heart of
millions of Orthodox Christians worldwide.
For 1,700 years, it has transcended a
tumultuous history, yet remained constant in its mission of service. Its
truly global role unfolds from a historic district of Istanbul where
the Phanar, as it is pronounced in Greek, is found. Directly
overlooking the Golden Horn, the estuary encroached on by the sea is
located in the part of Turkey which is geographically Europe, and which
divides the city of Istanbul in two: the ancient
Byzantium-Constantinople to the South and the Genoese colony of
Pera-Galata in the North.
The name Phanar dates back to
the Byzantine era and is derived from the Greek word «lantern» as used
to assist navigation. After the fall of Constantinople (1453), the
district’s neighborhood became home to many of the Greeks who returned
to live in the city and also to the Ecumenical Patriarch of
Constantinople.
The church of St. George, formerly part
of a monastery, was elevated to a Cathedral church by the Patriarch of
Constantinople, Matthew II, in 1600; here he moved the seat of the
Patriarchate, the sacred place «where the Chair of the bishops of this
historical martyr Church is, guided by Divine Providence of the ministry
of high responsibility to be the First Throne of the Most Holy Local
Orthodox Churches», as it was defined by the Ecumenical Patriarch
Bartholomew I[1].
The Patriarch and the Pope
In late November 2014, Pope Francis
traveled to Turkey and was welcomed «with love and great honor, but also
with profound gratitude»[2]
from the City of Constantine’s Church and by Patriarch Bartholomew’s
embrace. After a day spent in Ankara, in fact, he moved onto the city
located on the Bosphorus, entering the Phanar twice: the first occasion,
on Saturday 29 for an ecumenical prayer in the Patriarchal Church of
St. George and then for a private meeting in the Patriarchal Palace; and
once again on Sunday 30 for the Divine Liturgy in the Church itself and
then for the ecumenical Blessing and the signing of a joint
declaration.
The schism between Rome and
Constantinople occurred in 1054, and was sanctioned in 1204 because of
the Fourth Crusade with what St. John Paul II defined the «disastrous
sack of the imperial city of Constantinople» by those who «who had set
out to secure free access for Christians to the Holy Land, turned
against their own brothers in the faith»[3].
But it was, in actual fact, the churches of Rome and Constantinople who
resumed dialogue of charity with Paul VI and Athenagoras’ historic
embrace in 1964, and whom, in addition, revoked mutual excommunications
of the two Churches. That gesture was confirmed and extended further in
with Pope Francis and Patriarch Bartholomew’s encounters, first in the
Holy Land, then in the Vatican[4] and in November at the Phanar.
These encounters were experienced as a
prophetic sign of a long-awaited and desired unity which is today
revealing its beauty in a sincere friendship. This is why the Patriarch
has expressed his «ineffable joy» caused by «the appropriate honor of
the presence of the person of Your Holiness»[5].
Bartholomew greeted the Pope by giving a
reading of the months of his pontificate: «Your still short path as the
guide of your Church has consecrated you into the consciousness of our
contemporaries, herald of love, peace and reconciliation. You teach with
your speeches, but mostly and mainly with the simplicity, humility and
love for all, in the name of those you exercise your high office. You
inspire confidence in the incrediulous, hope to the hopeless,
expectation for those who expect a loving Church toward all.»[6]
Many people were moved, in particular,
by the Pope and the Patriarch’s embrace, and by Francis’s bowing before
Bartholomew with a request to be blessed and to pray for the Church of
Rome.[7] The Patriarch kissed him gently on his white zucchetto[8].
These gestures, along with the
sentiments of faith and communion which provoked them, have founded a
profound desire for dialogue with the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
I.
«I am grateful to the Jesuits, he tells
me: I was a student of yours at the Pontifical Oriental Institute.» In
fact, of the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I’s long and extensive
theological training, the five years in which he studied Eastern Canon
Law in this institute receiving his doctorate in 1968 should be
considered central. His words remind me of the fact that the Pontifical
Oriental Institute is just a short walk away from the Basilica of Santa
Maria Maggiore, where the former student Dimitrios Archondonis - this is
the the Patriarch’s civil name - went to pray, just as Francis does
today before and after his apostolic journeys.
Your Holiness, our world is changing
rapidly. We live in a difficult time in some ways, but the believer
knows that the Lord is present and active in the world. What is today
the biggest challenge for the life of faith and the proclamation of the
Gospel?
A mere glance at global news and social
media reveals the unprecedented rapid changes that are taking place all
around us. We are, therefore, becoming increasingly faithful and hopeful
in God, who alone can stabilize our hearts and all humanity. He is the
Alpha and the Omega, who is and who was, the same yesterday, today and
forevermore.
At the same time, however, there has
never been a time in history when people can exercise more influence on
their surroundings. Our age is unrivaled in terms of our awareness of
the connections between our convictions and our conduct, between what we
believe and what we practice, between our spirituality and our
lifestyle. Never before have human beings been in a position to decide
and determine the future of our community and planet. We can literally
choose and change the way we live in order to inform and influence the
challenges that we face – especially human displacement and climate
change, as well as economic inequality and social injustice.
And what is, in your view, the most important task that we have before us? What is the biggest challenge at the moment?
Still, the greatest task — and, indeed,
the greatest test! — before us is the willingness and readiness to make
these connections. The unfortunate reality is that we are reluctant and
even resist the call to recognize our own responsibility for the
difficulties and divisions that plague our world. And here, we believe,
lies the heart of the problem: How will we acknowledge the direct
relationship between ourselves and our world? How will we discern that
what we do and what we have are immediately related to the way the rest
of the world lives and lacks? Ultimately, how can we live in such a way
that promotes harmony and not division, gratitude and not greed in the
world?
Faith can not be extraneous to this immense task...
Of course. In light of this dilemma, the
world of faith can prove a powerful ally in the effort to address
issues of social justice. It can provide a unique perspective – beyond
the merely social, political, or economic – on the need to eradicate
poverty, to provide a balance in a world of globalization, to combat
fundamentalism and racism, as well as to develop religious tolerance in a
world of conflict. It is precisely the role of religion to respond to
the needs of the world’s poor as well as to vulnerable and marginalized
people. As such, religion is arguably the most pervasive and powerful
force on earth. For, not only does faith play a pivotal role in people’s
personal lives, but it also plays a critical role as a force of social
and institutional mobilization.
Is there something in Orthodox
spirituality that helps you in a special way to live this broad vision
and to understand this social power of faith?
From the perspective of Orthodox
Christian spirituality, the light and power of Christ’s Resurrection
provides a source of optimism and realism, particularly when everything
around us appears to contradict the hope that lies within us. Orthodox
Christians glimpse this hope each year on the eve of Easter Sunday, when
the bishop or priest exits the altar, which symbolizes the tomb of
Christ, and triumphantly chants: «Come, receive the light!» With these
words, the light from a single candle lights up the entire church,
previously waiting in darkness. It is the conviction that the light of
God is brighter than any darkness in our hearts and in the hearts of all
those in church, indeed brighter than any darkness in the world.
On May 25, during the prayer in
front of the Holy Sepulcher, you said that fifty years ago, Pope Paul VI
and Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras, had shed the fear that, for a
thousand years, had kept apart the West and the East Churches and
sometimes even saw them opposed. I remember your homily in the
Patriarchal Church of St. George at the Divine Liturgy for the Feast of
Saint Andrew the Apostle. Before Pope Francis you said that in that
meeting fifty years ago, «the course of history changed direction» and
that «the cooled love had been rekindled and had refreshed our
willingness to do all that we can so that our communion could emerge in
the same faith and in the common chalice.» Today, how do you see the way
forward for the two sister Churches?
There is no doubt that the historic
meeting of our venerable predecessors, Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras
and Pope Paul VI, who was recently beatified in the Roman Catholic
Church, marked a new beginning for relations between Roman Catholicism
and Orthodoxy. We cannot ignore that this event occurred after an entire
millennium of mutual mistrust and theological estrangement between our
two great traditions. During that painful period of separation, despite
our common history of Scripture and Tradition, our two «sister churches»
ran the risk of damage through isolation and self-sufficiency, having
followed separate ways since the eleventh century. The meeting between
Patriarch Athenagoras and Pope Paul in Jerusalem on January 6, 1964, was
an extraordinary starting-point for a long journey of reconciliation
and dialogue, which the succeeding generations were called to continue
and build upon. Looking back at the last fifty years, we can be grateful
to God for what has been achieved both through the «dialogue of love»
and, subsequently, through the «dialogue of truth.»
A path maybe long and sometimes arduous, but with no return...
Thankfully, today, the spirit of
fraternal love and mutual respect has replaced the old polemic and
suspicion. Since 1964, we may not have achieved full communion, which
must always be the ultimate goal of Christ’s faithful disciples.
Nevertheless, we have learned to forgive one another for the mistakes
and mistrust of the past; and we have taken significant steps toward
rapprochement and reconciliation.
Were these steps also significant from a theological point of view?
At the theological level, of course, the
Joint International Commission of the Theological Dialogue of our
Churches has produced several important common documents. However, we
recognize that there is still a great deal to be done both between our
two Churches as well as within our own Churches. There is no doubt that
the path will be long and difficult. But as disciples of our Lord, who
prayed to His Father and urged His disciples «that they may be one», we
have no other alternative but to pursue this path of reconciliation and
unity. Any other way would be a dishonorable betrayal of the Lord’s will
and an unacceptable return to our estranged and regrettable past.
In your homily for Saint Andrew’s
feast you told the Pope that «our duty does not end in the past, but
principally stretches, above all to our days, to the future.» I seem to
perceive in this historic moment an emergency, a positive tension, even
greater than in the past. What are your thoughts on this?
We would dare to say that, today,
perhaps even more so than fifty years ago, there is a greater and more
urgent need for reconciliation. This is why our meetings with our dear
brother Pope Francis in Rome, Jerusalem and Istanbul were events of
great significance and consequence. They are, as we must humbly realize
and realistically confess, only a first step of reaching out toward the
world, a modest affirmation of our desire to increase our efforts toward
Christian and peaceful reconciliation on a global level. Nonetheless,
they clearly demonstrate our shared willingness and common
responsibility to advance along the path paved by our predecessors and
mandated by our Lord Jesus Christ, «the founder and perfecter of our
faith.»
During the interview I conducted
with Pope Francis, in August, 2013, he told me that now it is the right
time to change the methodology of the Synod, because the current one
seems static. This, he continued, «will also be of ecumenical value,
particularly with our Orthodox brethren. From them we can learn more
about the way of episcopal collegiality and tradition of collegiality.»
The Synod process in the Catholic Church was opened and is still in
progress. On the other hand in Amman, last September, there was a
meeting of the Mixed Commission created to address the theological
obstacles to full communion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
The theme was the relationship between Primacy and Synodality. The
dialogue on this point has not made significant progress.
What is your wish for our
Churches? How would you consider the Pope’s words? What is the most
important value of collegiality? What should be the relationship between
Primacy, Synodality and Collegiality?
In the same interview, Pope Francis
said, «In ecumenical relations it is important not only to know each
other better, but also to recognize what the Spirit has sown in the
other as a gift for us too. I want to continue the discussion which
commenced in 2007 between the joint Catholic-Orthodox commission on how
to exercise the Petrine primacy, which led to the signing of the Ravenna
Document. We must continue along this path. We must walk united with
our differences: there is no other way to become one. This is the way of
Jesus.»
From an Orthodox perspective how do
you read these words? What is the way of Jesus? At the Holy Sepulcher we
saw you and the Holy Father holding hands, walking up and down the
steps. An image with a very strong and deep symbolic value. How do you
perceive the figure of Francis? Can you tell me something about him and
your relationship with him?
The theological issues of primacy and
collegiality in the Church are of course very central and at the same
time critical for relations between our two «sister churches.» This has
been a thorny debate throughout the centuries; and it is currently on
the table for conversations in our official theological dialogue. It is
not an easy question to «unpack» and «unravel» precisely because it is
connected with so much prejudice and polemic on both sides. Whenever
primacy is discussed among the Orthodox, people immediately think of
papal authority, especially in light of abuses in medieval times; and
whenever collegiality is discussed among Roman Catholics, people
immediately fear that the authority of the pope is in question or even
overlooked.
So it will take some time to discern
people’s true concerns and intentions. Nevertheless, meanwhile, the way
church leaders conduct themselves will have a significant impact on how
authority is perceived in the Church. For example, the way that Orthodox
leadership is indeed a genuine model for collegiality – instead of an
opportunity or excuse for national or institutional competition – will
inevitably determine the veritable and credible nature of our criticism
of the Petrine ministry. At the same time, the way that the papal
ministry is exercised in humility and compassion – instead of as an
imposition over the rest of the episcopal college – will invariably
define the manner in which it is a truthful reflection of our Lord’s
crucified love, rather than in terms of worldly power.
Synodality needs a «first», the Protos: it is not possible to understand Synodality without the Protos. It is he who is the one who has the charisma of diakonia at the service of unity. The Protos is the one who seeks for the consensus
of everyone. And here is where we truly sense that our brother Francis
has revealed extraordinary leadership. From the very outset of the
election of Pope Francis, we felt that there was something special about
him: his integrity, his spontaneity, his warmth. This is why we decided
to attend his installation – or inaugural Mass – in March of 2013; this
was the first time ever that an Archbishop of Constantinople had been
present at such an occasion at the Church of Rome, or indeed vice versa.
We have already mentioned our commitment to theological and sacramental
unity with the Roman Catholic Church. This will inevitably take much
time and intense work. However, there is much that we can nonetheless do
together with Pope Francis in order to respond to the vital needs of
our world: to the suffering and hunger that increasingly plague our
world, to the unjustifiable and sinful gap that is growing between rich
and poor, as well as to the urgent crisis presented by climate change,
which challenges the fundamental attitudes that we have toward the
natural resources of our planet.
The suffering of people in every corner
of our planet today; the abuse of religion for political and other
secular purposes; the difficulties facing Christians all over the world,
and particularly in the areas where the Christian Church was born and
grew up, regardless of confessional identities; the injustices inflicted
on the weak members of contemporary societies; and the alarming
ecological crisis which threatens the integrity and the very survival of
God’s creation – all these call for common action and the solution of
the problems still dividing us. This is precisely why today, even more
than fifty years ago, there is an urgent need for reconciliation, which
rendered our meetings with our brother Pope Francis in Jerusalem and
Rome as events of great significance and wider impact.
What contribution can the Orthodox Church give to the world today?
There is a great deal that the Orthodox
Church can provide as testimony to the modern world. Of course, so many
issues are intertwined – socially, economically, and ideologically. The
Orthodox Church has to offer the force of the original faith as it
existed during the first ten centuries of our common historical journey
with the West. Therefore, what the Church is called to offer is the
simplicity and authenticity of the Christian faith. We teach authentic
spirituality and ascetic morality. The West was cut off from these
values, and this is precisely what justifies the nostalgia that is
manifested today. Ultimately, it is essential to change the present
mindset and abandon a lifestyle of over-consumption and unrestrained
greed that inevitably lead to social injustice and inequality. The
Apostle Paul teaches that greed leads us to the worship of material
goods, which is idolatry, the greatest sin. The Church teaches not greed
but frugality – namely, leading simpler lives. This is the essential
message of the Orthodox Church to the contemporary world.
In 2016 there will be a «Great and
Holy Synod» of Orthodoxy. What are your deepest desires for that
meeting? Will it address the question of ecumenism?
At our most recent Assembly (Synaxis)
of the Heads of the Autocephalous Orthodox Churches throughout the
world, which was held at our invitation in Istanbul from March 6-9,
2014, the Primates of the Orthodox Churches deliberated on the matter of
the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church and unanimously decided
that, upon expediting the process of preparation, this Synod will be
convened in Istanbul in 2016. This Synod will, as you rightly observe,
be a vital sign of unity among our Orthodox Churches at a time when our
world demands a unified response to its critical challenges.
At this assembly, we informed our
Brother Primates of our meeting with Pope Francis in Jerusalem. In this
way, they declared their support of the event and affirmed their
commitment to theological dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church. This
is important because our meeting in Jerusalem was much more than a
strong symbolical confirmation of our willingness to continue the path
of love inaugurated fifty years ago by our predecessors in the spirit of
faithfulness to the truth of the Gospel. It was also an important
opportunity for the world to see a united approach – beyond confessional
identities and differences – to the suffering of Christians in so many
places, and especially in the areas where Christianity first appeared
and developed. Moreover, it provided occasion to address the injustices
inflicted on the vulnerable members of contemporary societies as well as
the alarming consequences of the ecological crisis.
However, the Holy and Great Council of
2016, will be a vital element in the development and presence of the
Orthodox Church throughout the contemporary world. In some ways, the two
major issues that will both determine its convocation, while at the
same time define its deliberations, are: first, relations between the
Orthodox Churches with other Christian confessions and other religions;
and then relations among the Orthodox Churches themselves.
What is the climate of the confrontation? Do you sense that there are tensions or obstacles to overcome?
Regrettably, there is a growing
conservative element in many Orthodox churches and circles, which react
to the contemporary challenges of our age by enclosing themselves in a
stifling and exclusive existence. Of course, this has never been the
practice and promise of the Christian Church, which «has always been
prepared to give an answer to everyone who calls on us to give an
account of the hope that lies within us» (1 Peter 3.15).
Moreover, with regard to fraternal and collegial relations among the
Orthodox Churches themselves, there has been an escalating nationalistic
and triumphalistic reduction of the Eucharistic and ecumenical nature
of the Church, which has always condemned «phyletism» as a dangerous
heresy, particularly at the Council of Constantinople in 1872.
Nonetheless, «ethnophyletism» appears to be a perpetual temptation of
many of our more recent churches.
What is your desired outcome for this dialogue?
Our sincere hope and prayer is that the
autocephalous Orthodox Churches will be able to convene and discuss
freely, in a spirit of honesty and openness, the issues that truly
matter to the Church and the world, rather than becoming fixed on
self-seeking and self-serving interests of power and privilege.
Otherwise, it would be a lost opportunity to address the problems that
really matter to the world and plague God’s people and God’s creation.
We Christians have confidence in the
work of the Holy Spirit in favor of our efforts to live the Gospel and
to achieve the unity of the Church. Pope Francis in his homily at the
Catholic Cathedral of the Holy Spirit in Istanbul said that «He realizes
everything» and that «when we pray, it is because the Holy Spirit
inspires the prayer of the heart.» Prayer is essential and the Spirit
«unsettles», «moves», «makes us walk», the Pope said on that occasion.
For you, according to your life experience, what does it mean to «pray»?
There is a saying among the early desert
fathers about Abba Joseph: «Abba Lot went to see Abba Joseph and said
to him, ‘Father, as much as I can, I follow my rule of prayer, I fast a
little, I pray and meditate, I live in peace and I purify my thoughts.
What else can I do?’ Abba Joseph stood up and stretched his hands
towards heaven. His fingers became like ten lamps of fire and he said,
‘If you want, you can become all flame.’»
In the Orthodox tradition, prayer is not
just a stage in the spiritual life; it is a pervasive activity that
permeates all aspects and all details of our life. For example, each day
here at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, we personally attend morning
(matins) and evening (vespers) services, closing each day (with
compline) in the small patriarchal chapel. However, our aim is to
advance from the stage of saying prayers to the point of becoming
prayer, like Abba Arsenios in the fourth-century desert of Egypt. In the
words of another early theologian, Origen of Alexandria: «Our entire
life should be one extended, unbroken prayer.» This is precisely the
purpose and meaning of the traditional practice of the Jesus Prayer.
Prayer is the mirror of our inner life.
It is what ultimately reveals who we are in relation to God and to the
rest of the world. Through silence and prayer, we no longer ignore what
is going on around us; and we are no longer stuck in what only matters
to us. Then, we begin to recognize how we are all intimately
interconnected and mutually interdependent. And we develop a greater
sense of awareness and attentiveness to the world inside us and around
us.
Prayer, therefore, is not a private act...
How unfortunate it is that we have
reduced prayer to a private act, an occasion for selfish complaining to
God. In prayer, our concerns should always be the concerns of others, of
the world, and especially of the most vulnerable that are unable to
protect themselves. Otherwise, prayer becomes exclusive and divisive
(which is the literal meaning of the word «diabolical»). Authentic
prayer is not the comfortable feeling of self-complacency but rather the
experience of reconciliation with all humanity and all of God’s
creation. In the Homilies of St. Makarios, a fourth-century
spiritual classic, we read: «Those who pray truly and in silence, edify
everybody everywhere.» So, as a universal force, prayer has a cosmic
significance. For, we can never include some people in our prayer, while
omitting others. Or, to put it more simply: When we say that we love
God but do not love our neighbor, we are liars.
***
At the end of the interview with
Patriarch Bartholomew I, what emerges and imposes itself on our words is
the desire for a reciprocal common prayer and for the entire world; a
desire which poses challenges to us and urges us.
Returning to Istanbul in February to conclude this interview[9],
I discovered the city unusually snow clad. Crossing the wide area of
Topkapi, the Sultan’s Palace that has been incorporated into the site of
the ancient Byzantine Imperial Palace, there one finds the Church of
St. Irene, the oldest Christian worship place in the city, which is
today a concert hall.
It is in this church that the
pan-Orthodox Synod in 2016 is expected to take place. Pausing there and
pondering the Patriarch’s words, what came to my mind was what Pope
Francis had said in his address in the Patriarchal Church on November
30: «To meet, to come face to face, to exchange an embrace of peace, to
pray for one another are essential dimensions of the way towards the
restoration of full communion to which we tend»[10].
[1]
In his short allocution to Pope Francis during the doxology in the
Patriarchal Church on the occasion of his official visit to the
Ecumenical Patriarchate (29 November 2014).
[2]
Homily of Patriarch Bartholomew during the Divine Liturgy for the Feast
of Saint Andrew the Apostle in the Patriarchal Church of St. George,
November 30th 2014.
[3] Sermon of St. John Paul II to His Beatitude Christodoulos, Archbishop of Athens and All Greece, May 4, 2001.
[4] G. Salvini, «Papa Francesco in Terra Santa. L’invocazione per la pace in Vaticano», in La Civiltà Cattolica II 575-584.
[5] Ibidem.
[6] Patriarch Bartholomew’s homily during the Divine Liturgy for the Feast of Saint Andrew the Apostle, cit.
[7] See Pani G., «“Per giungere alla piena unità”. Dal Concilio di Firenze all’abbraccio di Istanbul», in La Civiltà Cattolica 2015 209-217.
[8]
The episode is the symbol of the end of any judicial pretense of
Peter’s primacy and also of the sincere willingness, based on the
Gospel, for a future reconciliation. The gesture recalled the one made
in 1975 by Paul VI celebrating Mass in the Sistine Chapel in the
presence of Metropolitan Meliton of Chalcedon, sent by the Ecumenical
Patriarch Dimitrios I. At the end of the liturgy, the Pope came to the
Metropolitan, knelt before him — which at that time represented the
Orthodox Church — and kissed his feet.
[9]
We would like to express our gratitude to Rev. Dr. John Chryssavgis,
Archdeacon of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Nikos Tzoitis, official of
the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and Theo Nicolakis, Chief Information
Officer of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, who contributed to
the realization of this interview.
[10]
Pope Francis’ words to Patriarch Bartholomew during the Divine Liturgy
for the Feast of Saint Andrew the Apostle in the Patriarchal Church,
November 30, 2014.
